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Old 04-08-2009, 12:07 AM   #1
mealstrom
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Odd question about vacuum sealing

So I took Rockace's advice and picked up some 11" bags, and they are the perfect size. Everything fits great. One of my coolers that is full of collectibles that I'll likely never smoke pretty much all got vacuum sealed. I wrote details about the contents (description, year of the cigars, MSRP at the time I bought them, etc) on note cards and included those into the bags. Like Mad Dawg said, having the Insta-seal button on the Foodsaver was IMMENSLY helpful. The first time out I almost crushed the box. Had to pop the machine open before it happened.

So to the question: Now that these are sealed and airtight, do I even need to worry about humidity with them anymore? They were all at 63% when sealed, and are sealed inside boxes. Everything is nice and snug, and so far everything is still vacuumed. It seems simple that since there is no air exchange, there is also no water exchange, so no humidity changes. I mean, these bags are meant not to be permeable, right?

Could I now take these boxes and put them on a shelf in a closet, checking them every week or so for a bad seal, and trust that the humidity is good? I'd expect them to still be at 63% (provided the seal is good) if I didn't open them for a few years. Do you think this is the case?

Maybe I shouldn't get an answer, because it just might clear out an entire new cooler for me to fill.
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:16 AM   #2
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OK, so if you'd gone and read the long thread that I linked, I think you'd have gotten some sense of the answer. Here's the Clif Notes version:

Benecio (my mentor for all things vacuum-seal related) always stores his sealed boxes in humidor conditions. The reason he does that derives from his experience sealing deer sausage. Specifically, he can always smell the sausage even when it's sealed. That would seem to indicate some kind of air transfer happening.

I don't doubt his observation for an instant, but when I see bags holding tight seals for years, it's hard for me to think that there's much leakage at all. No leakage, no transfer. More likely to me is that some liquid from the sausage squeezed out of the sealed part of the bags and got past the seal, and that's what he's smelling. But I can't know that for sure.

I think you create a small, sealed system inside the bag, and that within that system, the total amount of oxygen and water (which is what we're really concerned with) is set at the moment the bag is sealed. If that is actually the case, then there would be no need to worry about the RH outside the bag.

Nonetheless, I keep my sealed boxes in coolers and I keep the coolers at an RH of around 65%. I have around $8k worth of cigars sealed, so I obviously want to keep all the bases covered.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:08 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Dawg View Post
Specifically, he can always smell the sausage even when it's sealed. That would seem to indicate some kind of air transfer happening.
Actually, that is the lynchpin right there I'd think. When I seal up onions, I can smell them through the bag a few days later. I'm confident it's because everyday commercial plastics are permeable enough to allow oils and moisture to permeate the bag and evaporate into the air. Just like when I ship coffee in vacuum-sealed bags you can still smell it outside the box at the post office.

I guess no matter what the moisture is going to permeate the bag. There's not necessarily an exchange of air, since the bag isn't reinflating, but there is a small exchange of moisture. I just wonder if it's enough to be detrimental? Somehow I don't think I'll be taking that chance unless I move back to a climate like Georgia.
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Old 04-08-2009, 07:18 AM   #4
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I'd think any ambient change would have to be significantly prolonged to really affect a sealed bag.

That said, I am a fan of system redundancy. I'd use a cooler. Peace of mind baby!
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:51 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mealstrom View Post
Actually, that is the lynchpin right there I'd think. When I seal up onions, I can smell them through the bag a few days later. I'm confident it's because everyday commercial plastics are permeable enough to allow oils and moisture to permeate the bag and evaporate into the air. Just like when I ship coffee in vacuum-sealed bags you can still smell it outside the box at the post office.

I guess no matter what the moisture is going to permeate the bag. There's not necessarily an exchange of air, since the bag isn't reinflating, but there is a small exchange of moisture. I just wonder if it's enough to be detrimental? Somehow I don't think I'll be taking that chance unless I move back to a climate like Georgia.
Doubtfull you smell the onions THROUGH the bag...
There is that 3/4 inch FLAP that's left after the sealing process. check for a great seal on your onions, then liberally soap the flap with your favorite dish detergent. Let stand a minute or 3, then rinse liberally with water.

The onion smell will be gone, never to return.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:36 AM   #6
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Foodsaver bags are NOT the same as Ziploc or any other brand of polyethylene bags. Foodsaver bags are multi-layered, use several different plastics, and are specifically designed to be impermeable to gases. Polyethylene bags are gas permeable, either through the material or through the seal, or both.

Regardless of your interpretation of the age-old "relative humidity versus total moisture versus temperature" argument, you're creating a very small, very closed system. If the number of water molecules inside your closed system is not changing, then the moisture of your cigars isn't changing either, at least not in any significant way over any temperature range at which you'd want to store your cigars anyway. I don't want my cigars too warm, because I have *no* faith in the ability of reduced oxygen being able to kill beetle eggs.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:56 AM   #7
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But the big question still remains: when you seal them, do you leave the cello on or off?
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Old 04-08-2009, 05:21 AM   #8
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Any standard plastic bag does not stop totally water/air exchange. I would think you still need to keep these in a humidor, unless your ambient conditions don’t have extreme fluctuations for extended periods of time.
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Old 04-08-2009, 06:21 AM   #9
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Another issue is the temperature. Remember your 8th Grade science class. RH is also dependent on ambient temperature. While you may have sealed a set amount of water vapor in the bag, the percentage of RH will vary with temperature. So you'd still want to keep them in a cooler to minimize temperature fluctuations.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:09 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mealstrom View Post
So I took Rockace's advice and...

For the record, you must have me confused with some other helpful person?

Good luck on your process, though.
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